Oldboy is a film that is near and dear to me (no, not because I have a 'special' relationship with my sis), but simply because it is an amazing film. The concept is great. I love films that just drop the viewer into the middle of nowhere and force you to play catch-up. But I digress, onto the greater point.
It has been thrown around for a while that it would be ported over here to the US for a reboot. Today the word came down that initial talks have begun with Spielberg and Will Smith attached.
My first gut reaction was along the lines of "Oh $*%&". Will Smith is a fine actor and could probably do a workable role. And I love Spielberg, but he tends to not do well with dark subject matter. His films, no matter how 'heavy' the topic, tend to always lack a certain amount of grit and grunge while retaining a certain type of classic hollywood feel. Even Private Ryan and Schindler, while excellent films on very serious topics, still both had a certain luster and cleanliness to them.
Oldboy is more of a dynamic story than Spielberg tends to tell and definitely has more grime on it than he's probably used to dealing with. To me, someone like a David Fincher or a Nicolas Refn would do the story the justice it deserves (if it really NEEDS to be re-made, which it doesn't).
And, just to make sure my day was completely ruined: The new Conan series will be helmed by Brett Ratner. Great, maybe Chris Tucker will fill in for James Earl Jones' role and Jackie can play Mako's Akiro.
I do not believe Spielberg has it in him to tell this kind of story - An evil world in which good is impossible and happiness suspect. In the very darkest of Spielberg's work, those who perish do not do so in vain, and some kind of positive moral resolution is presented, implied or at least possible. There's no way he can, or would if he could, make an authentic "Oldboy." I would have been inclined to think Sam Peckinpah could have done it while he was alive, but even this dark storyteller sweetened the conclusion of Jim Thompson's "The Getaway."
This is a Korean organism which is unlikely to thrive anywhere else.
JF, your last line is a true sentiment. The first thought I had upon finishing Oldby (other than how much I like it) was that film like this could never get made in the US and be taken seriously or be done well. Same goes for films like Battle Royale or Crow's Zero, the japanese teen ultraviolence films. They would lose any social message and just be turned into b-grade actioners that may get the ire of some parent groups for glamorizing violence amongst the youth.
I agree with Jf on his last line and I also agree with you GS. The U.S. could not possibly do this film justice, especially if it is redone by Spielberg. Great action or horror films from Korea or Japan are never given their due in Western remakes, because Western society has always been prudish! The themes and concepts are taboo for Western audiences,thus film makers try to tone it down in a remake. In the process the guts of the film so to speak are sacrificed. The very essence of the film is changed so Western sensibilities, are not offended and a new run away cash cow is created for Western audiences.
I'm pretty much with the consensus here. Completely agree on all previous points made especially Sgt.T. American culture as a whole is generally culturally naive and conservative in there views even regarding entertainment. These remake will do what so many remakes before it have done. It will bastardize an excellent piece of art for the sake of profit. What kind of society do we live in that we can't come up with new and innovative story ideas and we have to steal, borrow, twist or recycle pre-existing stories that have done well on their own merits? It's a sad world that we live in when the only way to get a good idea is to steal someone else's.
I think that the core problem is the large scale of films these days. Due to the ridiculous budgets, the studios have to take every possible step to appeal to every possible filmgoer. That means remaking a renowned foreign film to grab the interest of folks like us, but then delivering a watered down generic actioner to appeal to everyone else.
I actually think it would be really cool if someone started up a studio that worked like the old "studio system" of the old days. Kind of a permanent staff of writers, directors, actors, etc. under contract who just crank out smaller films one after another. I bet we'd see some really interesting stuff there, and there are enough talented people who are desperate to get into the industry that they'd gladly accept a year-long job like this rather than hold out for that million dollar major studio job that's never gonna' happen anyway.
Yes, Koreans often make films "that couldn't get made in the U.S." – well, true enough, because films here are seen as entertainment, and vast numbers of films where everyone ends up dead or miserable just aren't going to cut it.
As for "Oldboy," I thought it had an interesting plot and some great sequences, but I preferred "Lady Vengeance" and even "I'm a Cyborg." As for it being "an excellent piece of art" – give me a break. You want art? Watch Kim Ki-Duk's films. "Oldboy" was made to rake in the bucks, just as any U.S. remake would be.
Finally, I disagree with Sgt. T's comment about how "prudish" American films are, and how we "tone down" the Asian horrors we've remade. There was nothing toned down about the American "Ring" or "Grudge" (in fact, the U.S. "Grudge" was far gorier than the Japanese original). As for "prudish" - we're the country that brought the world "Saw," after all. I hasten to add that ALL those films are unwatchable crap IMHO.
I'm not supporting American films. Far from it. I think we've made a handful of decent films in the last decade, and what we put out is overwhelmingly crap, for the very reasons that Choco described above.
However, let's not lose sight of the fact that Asian countries put out an overwhelming amount of crap, TOO. I look the list of my Asian film collection, and notice that, year by year, fewer and fewer films appear – there's almost nothing worth buying from Hong Kong these days, unless you have a Twins fetish.
For a while, it did seem as if Korea would step up to the plate, but browsing through their titles can only convince you they have as much derivative crap on their movie screens as we do, here in America.
Same for Japan which, for the blink of an eye, surprised the world with "Ring" - until the "long haired ghost" thing became a cliché to the point it became a laughing stock (see the aforementioned "Grudge").
Some very good points PGW, but I have to say I'm consistently impressed by films from Japan. Yes, the j-horror thing is pretty much dead now, but that was always just a small segment of their output, and their dramas and comedies are consistently top-notch. It's a crime they're so often only released on DVD in Japan at those exorbitant prices.
Remakes are interesting to me just because I get curious of what they are going to change to make it work for a American audience, for example instead of dumplings what will they feed Smith while being captive, will he grow a big afro that looks like Samuel L Jackson's hairdo in "Unbreakable", will the kidnappers that keep him captive be Colombian mafia. And most important how are they going to do the ending of Old Boy for a American audience because that ending is one of the most Fucked UP endings in movie history. I can't imagine Steven Spielberg or Will Smith having the cojones to do the ending like the original film. This is the same way I feel about Bangkok Dangerous I saw the American version in Thailand with my wife and I found the movie so boring but then we saw the original Thai movie and it is such a good movie that I can't understand why the Pang Brothers decided to remake it with Nic Cage of all people
I agree, Choco. They do make a lot of good films there, in a whole lot of genres. Some that come to mind are "Hana and Alice," "Swing Girls," "Crying Out Love" and the Bayside Shakedown films. As far as comedies go, I thought that "Battlefield Baseball" had a goofy sense of humor quite unlike that of China and Korea. However, as you said, I really haven't been able to investigate their films as much as I'd like because I usually can't afford to spend the money on a Japanese DVD of something I haven't already seen, and might not like.
PGW and Bless, you guys (or gals, don't want to be sexist), had me laughing with some of your points. Great additions.
In all this talk of movies venturing overseas, it's made me curious as to what percentage of total asian output makes its way over here and vice versa. Like PGW said, we here in the US put out a lot of crap. But do films like Beverly Hills Chihuahua or Swing Vote get any type of wide release in the asian markets?
Alternately, are we more likely to get the better stuff from asia or just the films that have some potential to make money? Probably a mixture of both.
For example, Bollywood has the biggest output per year of any country in the world and I can't think of but a handful of Indian films that find their way to our theaters each year.
On a final, sad note, JJ Abrams has committed a mortal sin and changed the basic design of the USS Enterprise for his Star Trek film. No thank you, sir.
Don't forget that THE DEPARTED was actually a pretty good remake. Apparently the same team is behind the remake for CHASER. But yeah, who knows. Chances are that it will suck. It all depends on the screenplay. I think a good strategy is to actually change the name. Most casual viewers didn't even know DEPARTED was a remake, and the screenplay was so thought out and tight, people really wouldn't know.
YoMama, I agree that The Departed was good but only for its own merits. As a remake I think it failed to capture the unique dynamic of the good vs. evil theme in the asian original. Also the ending of that movie was much more westernized in my opinion.
I don't know if I can make this coherent, or even if what I say is necessarily true, but it seems to me the great bulk of American ultra-violence is simply that - am exhibition of gross-out for its own sake rather than as an expression of a malignant nature grinding protagonists down. Many of the Japanese have a strong hold on this kind of nihilistic dystopianism, and a smaller portion of the Korean filmmakers have too. In Old Boy, what is most disturbing is not the hammer attack, dental terror or octopus eating, but the revelation of the villain's true revenge. That final twist is the primary area I do not trust Spielberg to present accurately.
Just my two cents, but I almost drove off the road when I heard about the possible Hollywood remake of Oldboy. And I completely agree with Jeffrey Frawley on what makes Oldboy disturbing. Other than cashing in, I don't know why Hollywood needs to remake this film, honestly. I'm all for a GOOD remake, not just a remake just cause.
Hollywood wouldn't remake this because it is too taboo? Give me a monumental break. Hollywood would remake any movie if they thought a profit could be made. And the notion that this movie would somehow be out of bounds for Western audiences is a joke. If you think Hollywood or independent filmmakers don't make movies more transgressive than this, then you obviously aren't watching enough movies made in the United States.
Would a remake with the most annoying actor in Hollywood, Will Smith, directed by Steven "I can turn anything into a sappy, maudlin piece of crap" Spielberg be a bad idea? Probably. Is there someone in this country who could make a good remake? Of course there is. I don't care how many people here refuse to admit it, Hollywood makes some of the best movies on earth, period.
Yes, Hollywood produces some great films, but it also churns out a ton of safe, generic, "appeal to the masses" garbage. True, there are some transgressive films being made in the US, but mostly outside of the Hollywood studio system (a huge, bloated entity which by its very nature requires films to appeal to as big an audience as possible since it's the only way to turn a profit).
A safe version of Oldboy that has been re-worked to please middle America would be awful, and I think that's what most people posting in this discussion are concerned it will be.
The topic brings up issues that aren't really discussed often.I appreciate hearing from so many people who bring intelligent comments to the subject.Simui,I almost grinned when I read your post.Not that I would ever wish you harm, but because I can see myself careening off the road upon hearing such news.I think it was when I heard "Spielberg" that everything went blank.
MS10197,any movie producing country, province, state, company will make any movie,remake if there is reason to believe money is to be made. Of course there are fantastic movies made in the US! I would bet that the ratio of "good" movies to "bad" movies is probably about the same anywhere in the world.
Oldboy does not need a US remake. There are plenty of excellent ideas and screenplays out there if only those who wield power in movie land would open their minds and have the balls to actually do something different.N o remakes, adaptations,sequels,prequels etc. Choco let's start that studio!
Speaking of which, I've always thought that someone should bring back "the studio system", where a studio has a stable of filmmakers and actors under contract and they crank out a bunch of affordable-budget films every year. A lot of the cost of making a film could be cut by sharing the same resources to make several films at the same studio.
Of course the key is stocking your studio with talented, intelligent people. If you did it right, you could wind up with a string of good movies. If not, you'd wind up with a string of garbage! :)
But it does seem to me that there's good potential in that kind of setup. Think back to all the great b-movies that came out in the 40s, film noirs and crime-dramas, many with the same casts and crews, even sharing sets sometimes. It's an efficient way to make films if you've got the talent to back it up.
They wouldn't need to redo Oldboy for the sake of Middle merica. I don't know which version of Oldboy you guys saw, but nothing in that movie was particularly shocking to me, and certainly nothing in it is taboo enough to prevent it from being made by someone in Hollywood. Frankly, I think the comments about how Oldboy is so taboo-shattering and over-the-top are ridiculous in the extreme. Moreover the notion that the violence in Oldboy is somehow more cerebral and thought-provoking than violence in American films is absolutely hilarious. To be honest, I get tired of reading comments that seem to state that Oldboy is the most groundbreaking, thought-provoking, one-of-a-kind film ever. It's not.
"Yes, Hollywood produces some great films, but it also churns out a ton of safe, generic, "appeal to the masses" garbage."
And if you don't think that applies to Japan and Korea as well then you have watched approximately zero films from those countries.
There are a lot of films that are absolutely perfect as they are. It's not just Oldboy. Most of the movies I have seen have no reason for a remake. There are a few exceptions where a remake is better. I'm thinking of Carpenter's "The Thing".
Another reason to not ripoff or remake is creativity. Can't anyone come up with a few original scripts? Not everything has been done or filmed or written. There are still original stories to be found.
Movies, including Oldboy become what they are for many reasons. You can't recapture the nuances and expressions or ambience. That is reason enough to leave the original to stand alone.
If you think a revenge movie where the villain wins by getting the protagonist to engage in an incestuous relationship with his daughter (which is consummated on screen) would pass fit for release in the USA, I think you're being a little naive. There's nothing about the violence that would need to be toned down.
And I've watched dozens of films from Korea and hundreds from Japan. I'm well aware that those countries are capable of producing generic pap to please the masses. However, they also seem to have more filmmakers taking chances on non-formula ideas and themes, especially compared to the USA.
Incidentally, MS10197, your attitude is really tiresome. Pretty much everything you post in these discussions is laced with negativity...complaints about "the worst movie ever" or bashing other people's opinions.
Yes, MS10197, please make some effort to adopt a more friendly tone in your discussions. I know you've got an amazing brain on your shoulders, and we'd all appreciate the benefit of your input, but there's really no need to be so aggressive and confrontational here in every single post.
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